Audio Transcript

Serious Bible students ask sober questions about hard texts. That’s what I love about this podcast and our listeners. Sober questions about hard texts get asked and answered here. That will be especially true for the next two weeks as we narrow our attention to three hard Bible questions from you related to eschatology, questions on the first two chapters of 2 Thessalonians. We have three of them.

Namely, is God present or is he absent in his eternal judgment? Second Thessalonians 1:9 seems to say he’s absent. That’s today. Then many of you have asked about the man of lawlessness in chapter 2. Who is it? That’s on Friday in APJ 1803. And then a question about God sending strong delusions into the world. Does he do that today? How so? That’s a question on 2 Thessalonians 2:11. And that will be on the table two Fridays from now in APJ 1806.

So today, we have sober questions on the nature of God’s judgment. A listener named David writes us, “Pastor John, thank you for taking my question. It’s a serious one. Namely, is the presence of God in hell? Second Thessalonians 1:9 seems to say no. Is that right?” And Josiah writes us this: “Pastor John, hello. I read that hell includes the presence of God, per Revelation 14:10. Or is it away from the presence of God, per 2 Thessalonians 1:9? Can you help me understand which is right?”

Whenever I am asked a question about hell, I always feel the need to take a deep breath, so to speak, and step back and make sure that we are not handling this reality in a breezy, easy, superficial, cavalier way. So, let me say a few things by way of preface so that we can feel the appropriate weight of the question.

Thinking About Hell Too Little

It’s possible, I think, to think about hell too little and too much. To think about hell too little would mean that it rarely comes into your mind and therefore has little effect upon your life. But the Bible’s teaching on hell is not just for the sake of random, occasional curiosity. It’s for the sake of sober-mindedness, to keep us from thinking that distrusting God and disobeying God are matters of little consequence.

“The biblical teaching on hell is a reflection of the infinite worth of God and the outrage of scorning it.”

The knowledge of hell is intended to help us feel the moral outrage of preferring God’s creation over God, which is, I think, the essence of sin. The biblical teaching on hell is a reflection of the infinite worth of God and the outrage of scorning it.

The reason hell is eternal is not because the sin that sends us there was eternal, but because the offense against an infinitely worthy God is an infinite offense. So when we think of hell too little, we probably don’t tremble at the majesty and justice of God the way we should. Hell has a way of making life more serious, and thinking of hell too little will probably result in a moral and emotional life that is not in sync with the greatness, and the beauty, and the worth, and the justice, and the wisdom, and the grace of God.

Thinking About Hell Too Much

But it is also possible to think of hell, I think, too much. Hell really is a horrible reality. Consider the descriptions of it in the mouth of Jesus: “unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43), a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 24:51), a place “where their worm does not die” (Mark 9:48), a place of “outer darkness” (Matthew 25:30), a place of “anguish” (Luke 16:24), a place of “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

Or as Paul calls it in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, a place of “eternal destruction,” with “wrath and fury” (Romans 2:8). Or as John describes it in Revelation 14:11, “The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.”

These descriptions are terrible beyond words. But some people try to soften the horror by saying, “Well, words like fire and darkness are symbols.” And I want to say that the problem with that is, if they are symbols, they’re symbols of something, and it’s not less. I mean, symbols are an effort to put into words the unspeakable. That’s what symbols are for. To call something a symbol of fire means it’s worse, not better. Realities correspond to symbols.

It is possible, however, to think about this reality too much. I don’t think the human mind and heart are equipped in this fallen world to think for long periods of time on the reality of hell. God has a mind and a heart that can keep this reality in focus and in proportion to other realities so that it has no ill effect on him. I don’t think our minds and our hearts, in this age, can properly ponder such horrors for very long. We need glimpses — yes, we do. We need reminders, yes, but we don’t need continual consciousness of sufferings too great to endure.

Is God Present or Absent?

Now, David and Josiah in their questions both asked, more or less, about the presence of God in hell. And they point to two very relevant texts. Revelation 14:10, which gives the impression that the Lamb of God may be present in hell, says that those who worship the beast “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.” And the other text is 2 Thessalonians 1:9: “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.”

So, first, a word about Revelation 14:10. When it refers to the torments of hell in the presence of the Lamb, the term “in the presence of” means “in the sight of,” not “in the same space as.” The Greek word used literally is “before the Lamb”; they will be tormented “before the Lamb.” The same word is used in Revelation 3:2 like this: “I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.” That’s the same exact construction: “in the sight of my God,” “in the presence of my God.” He can see. It’s before him in that sense.

So when we say that something happens “in the sight of God” or “in the sight of the Lamb,” we don’t necessarily mean that God or the Lamb is in the same space of what they are seeing. So, I think Revelation 14:10 does not say that God or Jesus or the Lamb has some kind of ongoing residence in hell. But they can and do see hell.

Now, when 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the punishments of hell will be “away from the presence of the Lord,” the word for presence there is face, “away from the face of the Lord.” In other words, hell is a fulfillment of the threat in Ezekiel 7:22, for example, where God says, “I will turn my face from them.” It’s the exact opposite of the blessing in Numbers 6:24–26:

The Lord bless you and keep you;the Lord make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you;the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

“There is in hell an everlasting frown of disapproving justice.”

That’s the exact opposite of what happens in hell. That does not happen in hell. The gracious countenance of God does not shine upon them. And there is in hell an everlasting frown of disapproving justice.

Righteous Judgment Forever

So what shall we say, then, about the question whether God’s presence is in hell? I suppose you could say there are two senses in which God is “present.” First, he upholds everything by the word of his power through Jesus (Hebrews 1:3). So, hell would have no existence if God were not keeping it in existence. And second, hell is described as punishment and judgment — as not just consequence, but punishment. And so there will be an awareness of those in hell of God’s righteous disapproval present. His disapproval, his judgment, his punishment — that will be present to their minds forever.

But neither of those two ways of thinking about God’s presence suggests his personal presence. So, we can say that God is not present in this sense: His beauty will not be seen or known. His fellowship will not be enjoyed. His relief and his mercy will not be experienced. If there’s any sense in which God’s presence is felt as an upholding force, it will be the presence of his righteous judgment and wrath.

Hell is a reality to be avoided at all costs. And Jesus Christ, God’s Son, himself bore the greatest cost by becoming a curse for us on the cross (Galatians 3:13) — for everyone who would believe (John 3:16). Jesus became our deserved hell, and I urge everyone in the sound of my voice to fly to Jesus as your only hope of escaping these torments.

http://rss.desiringgod.org/link/10732/14811424/unity-in-truth-by-love-overview

Talk about the Holy Spirit? That’s always been tricky. After all, he is the Spirit, the Wind, the great unseen Enigma, that most mysterious and hidden Person of the ineffable Godhead.

Also, we live in times that can make thinking and speaking about the Spirit all the more difficult. For one, pervasive secular influences pressure us to deal with concrete phenomena — the seeable, hearable, touchable, tastable. The effect is a subtle but strong bias against the Spirit. With Jesus, we’re talking real-life humanity, at least in theory; with the church, we’re talking real-life fellow Christians; with creation, we’re talking tangible, sense-able, the world that surrounds us; with anthropology, flesh and blood and our own undeniable inner person. But the Invisible Wind is almost a no-starter for the mind shaped by secular influences.

What’s more, many Christians have the unfortunate tendency to quickly turn Spirit-talk to “manifestations of the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 14:12) — that is, spiritual gifts and especially controversial ones like speaking in tongues. All too soon, we are not even talking about the Spirit and the real heart of his work but mainly speculating about ourselves and telling strange stories.

In Scripture, the Spirit himself does not receive the front-and-center attention that the Father and the Son do. He often hides in compact, meaningful phrases and works quietly in the theological background. Of course, this is the Spirit’s own doing. He is the author of Scripture, thrilled to shine his light on Father and Son, to carry along prophets and apostles in word ministry, and to empower the words and deeds of the eternal Word himself. Scripture’s brevity of focus on the Spirit isn’t oversight or suppression. The Spirit likes it that way — he did it that way.

‘Life in the Spirit’

Still, hide and work quietly as he may, he does step forward in a place of striking prominence, in one of the greatest letters ever written, at the very climax of Paul’s magnum opus: “The Great Eight.”

Romans chapter 8 is one of the few spots where the Spirit pulls back the curtain and says, in effect, “I will tell you a little bit about myself: as much as you need to know, but not too much, and not for too long.” For centuries, devoted Christians have given special place to the promises and wonders of Romans 8, which is well summarized in the ESV with the heading “Life in the Spirit.” Romans 7:6 sets up the contrast that follows in the rest of chapter 7, and into chapter 8:

We serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 7:7–24, then, rehearses the challenges of serving under the oldness of the previous era and its law (holy, righteous, and good as it was), and Romans 8:1–27 bursts into the joys and benefits of living in the newness of the Spirit. In Christ, the Spirit is not only with us, as he was with old-covenant saints, but now, poured out from heaven in new fullness by the risen Christ, the Spirit testifies to us of our status, intercedes for us in our weakness, and even dwells in us as the present, personal power of the Christian life. Consider these three Spirit-glories in Romans 8, working from the outside in.

Sonship: He Testifies to Us

First, the Spirit speaks to us — and not any insignificant word. His is the foundational word about our most foundational identity. And it’s a weighty word, a testimony — knowing with certainty what has already happened, he testifies to us about what is truly the case, like a witness in court, in order to persuade us of the truth.

Not only are we creatures of the Creator, humans formed from humble dust, and not only are we sinners who have turned against our King, but now, in Jesus Christ, God’s unique Son, we too are “sons of God” (Romans 8:14). “The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God” (Romans 8:16). He is “the Spirit of adoption as sons” (Romans 8:15) who solemnly testifies to assure us that we are God’s chosen — not mere creatures but beloved children drawn into his family, who now irrepressibly cry out, “Abba! Father!” (Romans 8:15). Already we are children. The Spirit knows this and bears witness to it so that we, too, might confidently know and embrace it.

Hidden and enigmatic as the Spirit may seem, he is not some silent force but a revealing, speaking, leading Person. He is “the Spirit . . . of revelation” (Ephesians 1:17), who not only “carried along” the prophets and apostles as divine mouthpieces (2 Peter 1:21; Ephesians 3:5) but still speaks, says, indicates, and testifies (1 Timothy 4:1; Hebrews 3:7; 9:8; 10:15; Acts 20:23; 1 John 5:6) through the living word of Scripture. He still prompts and leads God’s people (Romans 8:14; Galatians 5:18).

His profile may often seem unpronounced, but he is not silent. If you know yourself to be a beloved, chosen child of God, the Spirit is the one who awakened and sustains that recognition in you. Without him, sinners may cry out for help to a distant, unknown deity. With him, saints cry out for the care of our Father. And that crying out leads to the second glory of the Spirit in Romans 8.

Intercession: He Prays for Us

To be beloved children — “heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17) — is almost too good to be true. Yet so it is in Christ. But this towering ideal of sonship doesn’t mean Romans 8 is unrealistic about our lives in this sin-sick and cursed world. The heights of God’s grace do not ignore the depths of our lives. We suffer. We groan. We know ourselves to be weak.

Because of human sin, God subjected the creation to futility, and

the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. (Romans 8:22–23)

We know ourselves to be children through the Spirit’s testimony. Yet we still wait for the public formality and revealing. Yes, we are heirs, but still to come is our full inheritance. In the meanwhile, we groan. In this life, we navigate seasons and sequences of pain. At times (if not often), we come to forks in the road where we don’t even know how to pray — whether to be spared pain or to endure it faithfully, whether for respite from our groanings or holy persistence in them.

“Hidden and enigmatic as the Spirit may seem, he is not some silent force but a revealing, speaking, leading Person.”

Here, amazingly, the Spirit helps us in our weakness: “The Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” (Romans 8:26). In the agonies and complexities of this age, we come wordless before God, unable even to articulate the heart of our sighs and groans. “We do not know what to pray for as we ought” (Romans 8:26). And oh, what comfort in these moments to have God himself at work in us praying to God for us. Beyond our ability to ask as we ought and even articulate our prayers, the Spirit appeals to the Father for our everlasting good.

Christ’s intercession for us (Romans 8:34) is outside of us, in heaven, where he sits at the Father’s right hand, having accomplished his atoning work and risen again to make good on it through his life. The Spirit’s intercession is in us, prompting us to pray and empowering our prayers (Ephesians 6:18; Jude 20). The Spirit is not only deep in God (1 Corinthians 2:10) but also deep in us (Romans 8:26–27) — which leads to a third Spirit-glory in Romans 8, perhaps the most astounding of all.

Indwelling: He Lives in Us

In Romans 8, and elsewhere in the New Testament, we find a bundle of mind-bending claims about God himself and Christ dwelling in us by the Holy Spirit. Paul hammers it on repeat in verses 9–11:

The Spirit of God dwells in you. [You] have the Spirit of Christ. . . . Christ is in you. . . . The Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you . . . his Spirit . . . dwells in you.

In case you missed it: if you are in Christ, you have the Spirit. You have him. He dwells in you. God himself has taken up residence, as it were, in your body and soul — in you. In a way that was not part and parcel of God’s first covenant with Israel, the risen and glorified Christ has given his Spirit to new-covenant Christians (John 7:38–39).

Our having the Spirit (Romans 8:9, 23) does not mean we own and control him. He also has us. He is in us, and we are in him (Romans 8:5, 9). He is sent into our hearts (Galatians 4:6), given to us (Romans 5:5), supplied to us (Galatians 3:5), and not just once but continually (Ephesians 1:17; 1 Thessalonians 4:8). And through faith, we receive him (Romans 8:15). So, as Paul repeats elsewhere, the Spirit dwells in us (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Timothy 1:14). This is what it means to have “Christ in you” (Romans 8:10; Colossians 1:27).

God Only Knows

If you are a Christian — if you claim Jesus as Lord and delight in him, and he is transforming you — consider what you’d be without the Spirit, without his opening your eyes and giving you a new heart and new desires. Without his still, quiet, daily promptings and leadings. Without his ongoing supply of spiritual life to your soul. Without his sealing and keeping your heart from your still-indwelling sin.

Jude 19 mentions those “devoid of the Spirit.” We get some glimpses as to what at least some people without the Spirit look like: scoffers, who speak up to put the truth down; those who follow their own ungodly passions and cause divisions; in short, “worldly people” (Jude 18–19). If that’s not you, if you are different, what has made you different? Might it be the Holy Spirit? However little you realize it and stay conscious of it, your life, from the smallest details to the biggest, is pervaded by the reality of having the Spirit. God only knows what you’d be without him.

Numerous Things He Does

Best of all, do you trust and treasure Jesus and love to speak of him? As Fred Sanders so helpfully observes, “The people most influenced by the Holy Spirit are usually the ones with the most to say about Jesus Christ” (The Holy Spirit, 3). He also quotes Thomas Goodwin, that the Spirit “is that Person that leadeth us out of ourselves unto the grace of God the Father, and the peace and satisfaction made by Jesus Christ” (21). Have you been led out of yourself to lean on the grace of God? The Spirit does that. Have you ever experienced peace in Christ? The Spirit did that. Have you enjoyed satisfaction in Jesus? The Spirit, the Spirit, the Spirit.

In him, we receive the washing of regeneration (1 Corinthians 6:11; Titus 3:5), the righteousness of justification (Romans 14:17; 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 Timothy 3:16), and the holiness of sanctification (Romans 15:16; 1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2).
He teaches us (1 Corinthians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:9; John 6:45) and gives us spiritual life and energy (1 Corinthians 12:11; Ephesians 3:16).
We worship in the Spirit (Philippians 3:3).
He gives us love for others (Colossians 1:9), joy (Romans 14:17; 15:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:6), peace (Romans 14:17; 15:13) — indeed all “the fruit of the Spirit” (Galatians 5:22–23).
He fills us with hope (Romans 15:13; Galatians 5:5), stirs our hunger for God, and turns our attention to “the things of the Spirit” (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:5), rather than sinful distractions.
He seals us (Ephesians 1:13; 4:30) and keeps us faithful to guard the gospel (2 Timothy 1:14).
In him, we also enjoy “the fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (2 Corinthians 13:14; Ephesians 4:3–4; Philippians 2:1; Hebrews 6:4) with others who have the same Spirit in them.

“It is characteristic of the doctrine of the work of the Spirit,” says Sanders, “that it is expressed in lists, wonderfully various lists of numerous things the Holy Spirit does” (162).

We can scarcely trace the “numerous things” he does in and for us. For born-again Christians, the Spirit’s work in our lives, in our thoughts, in our desires, in our wills, is far deeper and more expansive than we can even sense. To receive him, to have him, is to walk in a newness of life that touches and affects everything — yet in such a way that doesn’t keep the spotlight always on him.

Talking about the Spirit is admittedly tricky. But oh, how grateful we might be to have him! We can live in the holy confidence that the supernatural Helper dwells in us. How awesome to have the Holy Spirit.